Cancelling Cruises because of the C word

[mercury7289]

Thank you all,

 

feel more purposeful this morning and ideas are starting to flow.

 

Difficult to brain storm on your own and to allude confidence all the time.

 

Thank you again

 

[brillo]

Time for me to go and get on with the family history.

[daiB]

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/package-holiday-refund-rules-suspended-abta-coronavirus-a9417261.html

 

This is not good.

Edited March 22, 2020 by daiB

[wowzz]

Thank you. An interesting link. However, as I read it, the rules have not yet been changed.  I wonder what will happen in the interim?

Personally,  if the article is correct,  I will wait 2 years, get my money back, and never cruise again. Changing t&c's in the favour of the biggest partner is just plain wrong. 

In the scale of things,  with people dying, worrying about holiday costs seems irrelevant. But, hopefully, many of us will be full of anger about this attempt to stop us getting our money back.  

[Eglesbrech]

19 minutes ago, daiB said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/package-holiday-refund-rules-suspended-abta-coronavirus-a9417261.html

 

This is not good.

Thanks for posting the link Dai, very interesting reading. The paragraph below from it is relevant. Presumably they will not be able to apply any change to the rules retrospectively.

 

 

“Some holiday companies are already claiming, incorrectly, that the rules have been changed. The Independent has seen dozens of examples of travel firms rejecting requests for refunds.

Until the rules change, a strict entitlement to a cash refund remains.”

[daiB]

2 minutes ago, wowzz said:

Thank you. An interesting link. However, as I read it, the rules have not yet been changed.  I wonder what will happen in the interim?

Personally,  if the article is correct,  I will wait 2 years, get my money back, and never cruise again. Changing t&c's in the favour of the biggest partner is just plain wrong. 

In the scale of things,  with people dying, worrying about holiday costs seems irrelevant. But, hopefully, many of us will be full of anger about this attempt to stop us getting our money back.  

Remember that this across the board not just cruise lines. So that means no more package holidays either. Never good to make snap decisions at a time like this.

[davemorton]

So not the law at the moment, but 'may' come into force.  The be fair, so long as it is covered with insolvency protection, I dont mind, and by the sounds of it, even if you dont use the 'vouchers' you can later get a cash refund.  

[terrierjohn]

9 hours ago, wowzz said:

Thank you. An interesting link. However, as I read it, the rules have not yet been changed.  I wonder what will happen in the interim?

Personally,  if the article is correct,  I will wait 2 years, get my money back, and never cruise again. Changing t&c's in the favour of the biggest partner is just plain wrong. 

In the scale of things,  with people dying, worrying about holiday costs seems irrelevant. But, hopefully, many of us will be full of anger about this attempt to stop us getting our money back.  

wowzz, surely you are not serious? 

The scale of the possible economic disaster from this pandemic is huge, the govt is trying its best to ensure that all workers receive some protection by funding the wages of firms that are seeing the majority of their income stream disappear; and you are bellyaching about T&C's being changed to try and prop up the travel industry, shame on you.

If as expected this pandemic lasts most of this year, then the scale of the damage to the world economy is likely to leave us with a world far different from the one we have known.  We are unlikely to see wages and standards of living return to anything like the ones we were enjoying, for decades, so best we get used to some of the hardships now.

[TOM CRUIZES]

This could be the reason P&O are not cancelling Cruises knowing that this is on the Horizon, hoping to get the best of both worlds(AGAIN).

[arlowood]

Happy days. Heard over the weekend that Sainsbury's were extending their home delivery slots to prioritise those in vulnerable groups.

I already had a basket of goods waiting from a week or so ago when there were no slots available up until 9th April. Tried to Log in but had a message stating that website was not available - try again later. Have just gained access and tried to bring up the home delivery booking section.

 

No joy. Apparently Sainsbury's doesn't have enough information to identify us as being in a vulnerable group (wife and I are both 75 and have shopped at Sainsburys since we moved to England in 1970.) They have advised us to call a freephone number to amend their records so that we can be added to the vulnerable category. Got through to the number about 15 mins ago but was told to try again later due to high volumes of calls. Now the freephone number just comes up as unobtainable.

 

I applaud their intentions but clearly they have not anticipated the demand or interrogated their systems to categorise the vulnerable clients ahead of time

[DamianG]

15 hours ago, daiB said:

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/package-holiday-refund-rules-suspended-abta-coronavirus-a9417261.html

 

This is not good.

 

Thanks for posting this Dai. This is a real game changer for us, we're due to pay the final balance on 12th April 2020 for our cruise departing 18th July 2020.

We don't think there's much chance of it going ahead but we were still going to pay the balance (on the off chance it is still on) then request a refund as and when P&O cancel it.

We're restricted to school holiday sailings and already have a booking for 2021 so a future cruise credit (restricted specifically for new bookings only) is of no use to us.

I've no idea what to do now, even cancelling loses us a significant amount of (deposit) money.

Edited March 23, 2020 by DamianG

[Vampiress88]

5 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

wowzz, surely you are not serious? 

The scale of the possible economic disaster from this pandemic is huge, the govt is trying its best to ensure that all workers receive some protection by funding the wages of firms that are seeing the majority of their income stream disappear; and you are bellyaching about T&C's being changed to try and prop up the travel industry, shame on you.

If as expected this pandemic lasts most of this year, then the scale of the damage to the world economy is likely to leave us with a world far different from the one we have known.  We are unlikely to see wages and standards of living return to anything like the ones we were enjoying, for decades, so best we get used to some of the hardships now.

see I get that John that by having vouchers we are somewhat trying to protect the travel industry and their people. And I especially get it as my hubby is tied to making sure airlines don’t go down as that will effect his job 

 

on the other hand if I have £3k in p&o and & £4.2k in virgin that’s a lot of money should something happen to our jobs. It could possibly be the difference between keeping our house etc. If it all went terribly wrong it won’t matter down the line that I can go on to Florida or on a cruise if I lose my job or house etc. 
 

it’s a horribly fine line we are walking and it scares the hell out of me.  

[Bin man]

If I was in your shoes I would cancel and losse your deposit I think . But it is a decision  only you can make it .I was not quick enough to cancel mine because I thought there was a chance we would go in June but think I made wrong decision. Hope that helps 

[terrierjohn]

1 minute ago, Vampiress88 said:

see I get that John that by having vouchers we are somewhat trying to protect the travel industry and their people. And I especially get it as my hubby is tied to making sure airlines don’t go down as that will effect his job 

 

on the other hand if I have £3k in p&o and & £4.2k in virgin that’s a lot of money should something happen to our jobs. It could possibly be the difference between keeping our house etc. If it all went terribly wrong it won’t matter down the line that I can go on to Florida or on a cruise if I lose my job or house etc. 
 

it’s a horribly fine line we are walking and it scares the hell out of me.  

It's very concerning Vampiress, and I do sympathise with your predicament. We just have to hope that the measures the govt have proposed can keep most people in employment  and that there would provision for early repayment for anyone who does lose their job.

[arlowood]

16 hours ago, Eglesbrech said:

Thanks for posting the link Dai, very interesting reading. The paragraph below from it is relevant. Presumably they will not be able to apply any change to the rules retrospectively.

 

 

“Some holiday companies are already claiming, incorrectly, that the rules have been changed. The Independent has seen dozens of examples of travel firms rejecting requests for refunds.

Until the rules change, a strict entitlement to a cash refund remains.”

Just had an example of that today but on a smaller scale. My wife and a friend had booked a coach/hotel holiday with a local company. They rang today to say that the holiday was cancelled and offered a voucher towards a future holiday within the next 24 months.

I explained the current legislation and also checked T&C's of the package she had booked and clearly she should have been eligible for  full refund.

She called back and explained the legal situation and the girl back tracked a bit and said that they would offer a credit note but that it could not be redeemed until end of July at the earliest. This apparently was the instruction to them by ABTA.

 

These are exceptional circumstances and I can fully understand why ABTA has lobbied for this change. However I don't know how we stand. ABTA have requested the change but as of today as I understand it the 2018 legislation has not been rescinded/amended.

 

I can see the change coming into force officially sooner rather than later to protect many operators from going bust - particularly since the ATOL fund is probably skint following the Thomas Cook collapse.

 

Maybe P&O playing the long game has been a shrewd move on their part. However I am sanguine about it to some extent. Money paid for holidays is already spent and if you get a credit note that can be redeemed or cashed at a later date then you have a future experience to look forward to and thank your lucky stars that you still have your health.

Edited March 23, 2020 by arlowood
spelling

[Vampiress88]

8 minutes ago, arlowood said:

Just had an example of that today but on a smaller scale. My wife and a friend had booked a coach/hotel holiday with a local company. They rang today to say that the holiday was cancelled and offered a voucher towards a future holiday within the next 24 months.

I explained the current legislation and also checked T&C's of the package she had booked and clearly she should have been eligible for  full refund.

She called back and explained the legal situation and the girl back tracked a bit and said that they would offer a credit note but that it could not be redeemed until end of July at the earliest. This apparently was the instruction to them by ABTA.

 

These are exceptional circumstances and I can fully understand why ABTA has lobbied for this change. However I don't know how we stand. ABTA have requested the change but as of today as I understand it the 2018 legislation has not been rescinded/amended.

 

I can see the change coming into force officially sooner rather than later to protect many operators from going bust - particularly since the ATOL fund is probably skint following the Thomas Cook collapse.

 

Maybe P&O playing the long game has been a shrewd move on their part. However I am sanguine about it to some extent. Money paid for holidays is already spent and if you get a credit note that can be redeemed or cashed at a later date then you have a future experience to look forward to and thank your lucky stars that you still have your health.

couldn’t that be a problem in itself? 
the people who are given the IOU could indeed not be here anymore nearer to the two years. 
 

I get when people say it’s money already spent but none of us have any clue as to how bad this could be or if anything will

bounce back and we would look after ourselves better with our own money back in our pockets

[Son of Anarchy]

18 minutes ago, Vampiress88 said:

couldn’t that be a problem in itself? 
the people who are given the IOU could indeed not be here anymore nearer to the two years. 
 

I get when people say it’s money already spent but none of us have any clue as to how bad this could be or if anything will

bounce back and we would look after ourselves better with our own money back in our pockets

 

An interesting point.

 

A question for the legal eagles here:

 

If someone receives an FCC/IOU/whatever instrument of "refund", and sadly passes away before they can benefit from it, would the FCC/IOU/instrument become part of their estate?

[otbc]

Can they actually, honestly, change the terms now for bookings which will have been made based on the laws at the time guaranteeing a refund if the cruises were cancelled?

 

My partner and I booked and paid for our honeymoon a year ago - this cruise has cost us over £3k. We're now in a position where our wedding has had to be postponed to next year and we are reconsidering whether or not to go on a cruise - but in any event our circumstances would be much preferable to get our money back than an IOU for some 'future promise' of a holiday.

 

Our honeymoon was supposed to be in May - so I expect these new rules will come into force by then - but can they honestly change contract terms or the law after a booking has been made? Surely the rules would have been 'locked' in place as at the time the booking was made?!

[staygulf]

3 minutes ago, otbc said:

Can they actually, honestly, change the terms now for bookings which will have been made based on the laws at the time guaranteeing a refund if the cruises were cancelled?

 

My partner and I booked and paid for our honeymoon a year ago - this cruise has cost us over £3k. We're now in a position where our wedding has had to be postponed to next year and we are reconsidering whether or not to go on a cruise - but in any event our circumstances would be much preferable to get our money back than an IOU for some 'future promise' of a holiday.

 

Our honeymoon was supposed to be in May - so I expect these new rules will come into force by then - but can they honestly change contract terms or the law after a booking has been made? Surely the rules would have been 'locked' in place as at the time the booking was made?!

I very much doubt that it would be made retrospective to cancellations already made but could apply to new cancellations, otherwise there would be little point in a change. 

[otbc]

1 minute ago, staygulf said:

I very much doubt that it would be made retrospective to cancellations already made but could apply to new cancellations, otherwise there would be little point in a change. 

 

I meant can they change the rules around pre-existing bookings, as the contracts and law you sign up to at the point of actually paying for the holiday are the ones you agree to be bound by. By making changes to the contracts and law underpinning the holiday it essentially invalidates the contract anyway?!

 

I do sympathise for companies like P&O who must be struggling at the moment, but for my partner and I we're in our late 20s and the £3k we've paid is an enormous sum of money to us - and was something which was a once-in-a-lifetime holiday. Our wedding is potentially put off by 2 years now and having this £3k tied up for that long would be almost useless!

 

Has anyone even thought about what might happen if customers are forced to take FCC - surely that would just make it ridiculously easy for P&O to whack their prices up knowing full well they essentially have a massively captive audience who need to use their cruise credits?

[staygulf]

19 minutes ago, otbc said:

 

I meant can they change the rules around pre-existing bookings, as the contracts and law you sign up to at the point of actually paying for the holiday are the ones you agree to be bound by. By making changes to the contracts and law underpinning the holiday it essentially invalidates the contract anyway?!

 

I do sympathise for companies like P&O who must be struggling at the moment, but for my partner and I we're in our late 20s and the £3k we've paid is an enormous sum of money to us - and was something which was a once-in-a-lifetime holiday. Our wedding is potentially put off by 2 years now and having this £3k tied up for that long would be almost useless!

 

Has anyone even thought about what might happen if customers are forced to take FCC - surely that would just make it ridiculously easy for P&O to whack their prices up knowing full well they essentially have a massively captive audience who need to use their cruise credits?

I agree that the current 2018 legislation is an implied term of the contract and should apply to existing bookings. However, all I will say is I remember a time a few years back when the government were actively promoting tax breaks for investing the film industry and then, when people had invested, they changed the rules retrospectively. It’s all up in the air. 
 

I am awaiting a refund following my cancellation last week. If I don’t get it I am fully prepared to take legal action under the booking terms. 

Edited March 23, 2020 by staygulf

[jeanlyon]

I shall be losing my deposit because there is no way I am paying out £3K in July for a cruise in October.  I just don't think there will be any cruises this year.

[grapau27]

17 hours ago, davemorton said:

So not the law at the moment, but 'may' come into force.  The be fair, so long as it is covered with insolvency protection, I dont mind, and by the sounds of it, even if you dont use the 'vouchers' you can later get a cash refund.  

If insolvency protection is guaranteed and a Credit can be used to pay for a booking already made for 2021 sailing,this would ease a lot of jitters imo.

[otbc]

7 minutes ago, grapau27 said:

If insolvency protection is guaranteed and a Credit can be used to pay for a booking already made for 2021 sailing,this would ease a lot of jitters imo.

 

I think it'd help a lot of people, but not everyone - to say 'we're going to keep hold of your money for two years before you can potentially get it back' is a bit like keeping your money hostage. I'm not in a financial position where I can lose the money I'd saved for my honeymoon for potentially two years.

 

I know the situation is extraordinary, but you'd not go to buy a car and be told 'we can't give you the car you want, but we're going to keep your money for two years. If you like any of the cars we release then you can have those, but if not you can have your money back in two years time'!

 

The real way here to care about your customers is exactly what they were originally doing - offer a refund or FCC with a bonus which will hopefully entice people to take the FCC. If people take the refund, sorry, but that's business - sometimes people need their money back if a product or service isn't provided depending on their own personal situation.

 

As I said - what's to stop P&O whacking their prices up massively after this has gone to squeeze as much as possible from those who have FCC to spend?!

Edited March 23, 2020 by otbc

[grapau27]

1 minute ago, otbc said:

 

I think it'd help a lot of people, but not everyone - to say 'we're going to keep hold of your money for two years before you can potentially get it back' is a bit like keeping your money hostage. I'm not in a financial position where I can lose the money I'd saved for my honeymoon for potentially two years.

 

I know the situation is extraordinary, but you'd not go to buy a car and be told 'we can't give you the car you want, but we're going to keep your money for two years. If you like any of the cars we release then you can have those, but if not you can have your money back in two years time'!

I understand but I don't want to see P&O go bust and if guarantees were in place I would have felt happier with a credit against next March cruise.

Our Azura TA March 20th was cancelled.

The government advice about critical illness which included my Heart attack in December before P&O cancelled meant we were gutted but insurance would be void if we went.

I have replied to P&Os email and attached my hospital report and am awaiting a refund that they promised.