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Are we seeing the end of cruising?


weberman
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16 minutes ago, resistk said:

I feel terrible for all our friends in the crew, 90,000 still stranded on board, some dying on Princess ships:

 

https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/nightmare-at-sea-ends-in-death-for-some-cruise-ship-workers

 

I don't think I want to be part of a system that does this to people.

 

 

I understand your feelings because the situation is truly awful. 

 

However, it is not a system that is holding the crew members there without reason.  The article cite's travel restrictions, port closures, shifting rules on returning workers, and the fact that about 15 countries won't allow their citizens to return home.  Cruise lines are overwhelmed and I'm sure trying to figure it out like so many governments, health care systems, etc.  

 

One of the things that bothers me though, is that the article says the some crew members are isolated to their small quarters up to 21 hours a day.  Come on, it's and empty ship.  Certainly, they can do better than that. While trying to protect their physical health, they are doing incredible damage to their mental health. 

 

 

 

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In this image courtesy of Lauren Carrick, Carrick, a 29-year-old British dancer, and her fiancée Joe Harrison speak for a video log from their cabin aboard the “Celebrity Infinity” cruise ship, on May 4, 2020. The couple embarked the cruise ship on March 14, a day after the US issued a “no sail” order.

 

It seems strange that these 2 crew members boarded the ship a day after the no sail order was issued, I think if I had been in that situation I would have thought twice about boarding a ship that was going to be laid up for at least 60 days plus would I really want to enter an environment that could have covid-19 on board. 

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13 minutes ago, Cash123 said:

In this image courtesy of Lauren Carrick, Carrick, a 29-year-old British dancer, and her fiancée Joe Harrison speak for a video log from their cabin aboard the “Celebrity Infinity” cruise ship, on May 4, 2020. The couple embarked the cruise ship on March 14, a day after the US issued a “no sail” order.

 

It seems strange that these 2 crew members boarded the ship a day after the no sail order was issued, I think if I had been in that situation I would have thought twice about boarding a ship that was going to be laid up for at least 60 days plus would I really want to enter an environment that could have covid-19 on board. 

 

What I find strange is what the cruise lines who were in a position to know better, were doing?  The crew members have zero bargaining power and are on a contract.  I understand we are all protective of our favorities cruise lines but this is one messed up situation.

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45 minutes ago, AF-1 said:

The above article does paint a bad picture of the cruise lines.  Let's keep the faith that things get better.  

 

How?  It would seem cruise lines will be cutting costs to the bone if they ever get through this.

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On the other hand, a friend of mine posted this 2 days ago....

 

Day 58 of not touching land
I don't know about the others but I'm happy to be on board with my friends and the variety of food, plus we have our entertainment.
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34 minutes ago, lolane1 said:

 

I understand your feelings because the situation is truly awful. 

 

However, it is not a system that is holding the crew members there without reason.  The article cite's travel restrictions, port closures, shifting rules on returning workers, and the fact that about 15 countries won't allow their citizens to return home.  Cruise lines are overwhelmed and I'm sure trying to figure it out like so many governments, health care systems, etc.  

 

One of the things that bothers me though, is that the article says the some crew members are isolated to their small quarters up to 21 hours a day.  Come on, it's and empty ship.  Certainly, they can do better than that. While trying to protect their physical health, they are doing incredible damage to their mental health. 

 

 

 

That is truly mind-boggling.  

The ships have been at sea for long enough for anyone who HAD COVID to have fully recovered.  These ships are literally the safest place in the world to live in a social-distancing-free environment.  Why masks and distancing are being used is beyond me. 

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31 minutes ago, resistk said:

 

How?  It would seem cruise lines will be cutting costs to the bone if they ever get through this.

Like in how they treat crew members.  That was what I got out of this article

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The article claims that there are about 95,000 crew members who are stuck on ships in US waters but when I look at the MarineTraffic site, I don't see any cruise ships anchored in US waters.  Most appear to be anchored in the Bahamas.  Does anyone know how that number came about?  (Article claims stats are from the US Coast Guard but again, I don't see cruise ships anchored in US Waters.)  Is it possible they're counting merchant crews in with the cruise ship numbers?

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2 hours ago, resistk said:

I feel terrible for all our friends in the crew, 90,000 still stranded on board, some dying on Princess ships:

 

https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/business-pmn/nightmare-at-sea-ends-in-death-for-some-cruise-ship-workers

 

I don't think I want to be part of a system that does this to people.

 

 

"The two dancers on Celebrity Cruises’s Infinity say being held aboard ships for almost two months has left them emotionally drained.

“I cried all day,” said Carrick, 29. “We need to have alcohol to sleep — that’s how bad it is. We’re worried, tense, stressed out. We just want to get home.”

 

If only they had a mini-suite, and european food, things would be great.

 

I don't personally believe this, but I did read it here!

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, chrysalis said:

On the other hand, a friend of mine posted this 2 days ago....

 

Day 58 of not touching land
I don't know about the others but I'm happy to be on board with my friends and the variety of food, plus we have our entertainment.

reminds me of being a sailor 

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On 5/9/2020 at 10:26 AM, ontheweb said:

Just dealing with point #8. The Governor of NY state begged for a naval hospital ship for NY City as the predictions for the need for hospital beds was so dire. He got it, and a few weeks later it was gone as it was not needed at all, having sat there basically unused. And remember this is in the epicenter for the entire world for the virus at the present time.

The ship was there for non coronavirus patients, but those people with elective surgery and other ailments, stayed home. Hypochondriacs too.

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On 5/8/2020 at 7:00 PM, weberman said:

Yet, here is some insight from another LA Times travel writer David Lazarus: It is mainly about NCL but applies to Carnival/Princess as well

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/column-cruise-ship-industry-sinking-120054719.html 

Lazarus makes some interesting points! I had a bout of Norovirirus on one of my cruises and it was terrible.

 

 

 

Lazarus made this interesting comment: 

But the larger issue, which Norwegian touched on in its filing, is the public's growing perception of cruise ships as a fast track to sickness. It should be obvious to all that you're taking an enormous gamble as soon as you step aboard. (ALL CRUISE SHIPS)

 

The COVID19 virus makes the Norovirus look like a walk in the park! How many people will return to cruising?

 

Well, if there is a vaccine someday, we will return to cruising perhaps. Until then, other forms of activity will take the place of cruises as a means to use our disposable cash. Staycations for this year will be top of the list of course. We wont be going to Florida in November while the US battles the virus and an expected prolonged outbreak. In some respects I expect to see All Inclusives become more popular. Resorts are larger (more akin to large condo buildings in many cases) and so you can spread out more. You can claim a less crowded area on the beach as opposed to a crowded pool deck. Dining areas will be problematic as will airplanes so that's a hurdle but airplanes will be a hurdle for cruiser too so in my mind all inclusives will make a much quicker rebound. And you can forget about attracting new customers to cruising for a very long time. Only the die hard's (die easy?) will jump on a cruise right away. I said very early on in this crisis that I didn't think we'd recognize cruising when it returns and I still stand by that. Lines will go out of business, others will merge and I suspect that we will see far fewer cruises initially and ships at reduced capacity. I dont think its going to be the "Deal" many think it will be when cruising returns.  

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4 hours ago, AF-1 said:

Let's all hope for the best.  The scientists all over the world are working on a vaccine; and they are working nonstop.  I have faith they will have a working vaccine by early next year.  

Lets just hope they don't run into a situation like Dengue Fever that Sanofi ran into 

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1 hour ago, Daniel A said:

The article claims that there are about 95,000 crew members who are stuck on ships in US waters but when I look at the MarineTraffic site, I don't see any cruise ships anchored in US waters.  Most appear to be anchored in the Bahamas.  Does anyone know how that number came about?  (Article claims stats are from the US Coast Guard but again, I don't see cruise ships anchored in US Waters.)  Is it possible they're counting merchant crews in with the cruise ship numbers?

The ships have been moving back and forth.  At this time most have moved to the Bahamas where they are moving crew between ships with the intent of moving crew members between ships to consolidate nationalities.  But the Bahamas has not been letting the ships dock to resupply so they come back to the US to do that.

 

So the exact number depends upon the exact moment in time.

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My take on this situation is that both the cruise ship companies and the CDC type organizations are at fault. These poor crew members are being held at "ransom"    The people need to be flown/cruised home ASAP no more bull! Excuse my french. Even if they have to suffer through more quarantine when they get home it will be worth it. As was pointed out in another post, they have all been in imposed quarantine for way longer than 14 days. As soon as there are no more cases onboard there is no excuse for not allowing them off. The cruise lines need to pay up for charter flights to get them home.

Also what worries me are the family members of the crew who depend on them for money that is usually sent home! From what has been published, the crew are no longer being paid!

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I think one thing is for sure - it is the end of cruising as we knew it.

As several posters in this thread have opined, there are many other alternatives. The cruise lines not only compete with one another, but with many other forms of travel and leisure that arguably will be better positioned to rebound in a post-pandemic environment. Of course, that is if we ever reach that promised land.

The first casualty will be the recent ship-building boom - we are seeing, at the least, significant down-sizing of the industry with perhaps less cruise companies. Demand will slow, and the public will be less forgiving for being exposed to any contagious illness while on vacation. Frankly, the only times my wife and I have been ill with virus and/or flu-like symptoms in the last few years has been on or immediately after a cruise. A few years ago, on a TA, my wife and many other passengers experienced a respiratory illness onboard resulting in a expensive visits to the ship's MD and a course of treatment. It happens - a lot.

The COVID-19 crisis has illuminated these little annoyances to a grand scale. On each of out last three (3) long cruises, the ship had to divert back to it's home port earlier than scheduled to deliver critically ill passenger's to a hospital. Yes, people do get sick on long cruises but this problem has increased in recent years to where it's almost expected that we will have to divert or experience a airlift rescue at sea. That's not hyperbole, that's a fact.

The Great Cruise Boom is over just as it was taking hold. 

We are so glad we took the trips that we did when we did. We always justified them by agreeing that we should do it now, while we can, before we are too infirm to travel. Well, we did and we would do more if this hadn't happened, accepting the risks by preparing as much as we could to avoid them. The last cruise, in February, we carried hand sanitizer everywhere. We avoided touching the handrails on the ship as much as possible - handrails being one of the prime hot spots for virus transmission and one of the most ignored ones by the cruise companies. My wife wrote to Princess about the handrail problem last year. She got a nice reply back stating that the line would enact additional procedures to counter this problem - taking her suggestion that hand sanitizer stations should be stationed at every stairwell - they didn't follow through as far as we could see on our last cruise. With increased vigilance on our part, we finally broke our streak of getting sick onboard.

No matter how much the cruise lines do, however, to mitigate the threat of contagion on ships, the bigger problem always be careless, unsanitary passengers. And that too is a fact. How the cruise line addresses this issue is anyone's guess. We have already seen some rather clumsy suggestions from the industry. 

It's a big world out there. The future of travel is spreading out, not clustering. As much as we enjoy cruising, we would be very hesitant about getting back onboard without significant changes in providing a safe, sanitary environment on any conveyance post COVID-19. 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, loge23 said:

I think one thing is for sure - it is the end of cruising as we knew it.

As several posters in this thread have opined, there are many other alternatives. The cruise lines not only compete with one another, but with many other forms of travel and leisure that arguably will be better positioned to rebound in a post-pandemic environment. Of course, that is if we ever reach that promised land.

The first casualty will be the recent ship-building boom - we are seeing, at the least, significant down-sizing of the industry with perhaps less cruise companies. Demand will slow, and the public will be less forgiving for being exposed to any contagious illness while on vacation. Frankly, the only times my wife and I have been ill with virus and/or flu-like symptoms in the last few years has been on or immediately after a cruise. A few years ago, on a TA, my wife and many other passengers experienced a respiratory illness onboard resulting in a expensive visits to the ship's MD and a course of treatment. It happens - a lot.

The COVID-19 crisis has illuminated these little annoyances to a grand scale. On each of out last three (3) long cruises, the ship had to divert back to it's home port earlier than scheduled to deliver critically ill passenger's to a hospital. Yes, people do get sick on long cruises but this problem has increased in recent years to where it's almost expected that we will have to divert or experience a airlift rescue at sea. That's not hyperbole, that's a fact.

The Great Cruise Boom is over just as it was taking hold. 

We are so glad we took the trips that we did when we did. We always justified them by agreeing that we should do it now, while we can, before we are too infirm to travel. Well, we did and we would do more if this hadn't happened, accepting the risks by preparing as much as we could to avoid them. The last cruise, in February, we carried hand sanitizer everywhere. We avoided touching the handrails on the ship as much as possible - handrails being one of the prime hot spots for virus transmission and one of the most ignored ones by the cruise companies. My wife wrote to Princess about the handrail problem last year. She got a nice reply back stating that the line would enact additional procedures to counter this problem - taking her suggestion that hand sanitizer stations should be stationed at every stairwell - they didn't follow through as far as we could see on our last cruise. With increased vigilance on our part, we finally broke our streak of getting sick onboard.

No matter how much the cruise lines do, however, to mitigate the threat of contagion on ships, the bigger problem always be careless, unsanitary passengers. And that too is a fact. How the cruise line addresses this issue is anyone's guess. We have already seen some rather clumsy suggestions from the industry. 

It's a big world out there. The future of travel is spreading out, not clustering. As much as we enjoy cruising, we would be very hesitant about getting back onboard without significant changes in providing a safe, sanitary environment on any conveyance post COVID-19. 

 

 

 

Well said!!

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As a cruise lover (40+cruises) and a shareholder I am sad to agree with Princessluver.  I honestly can’t see how it is possible to stay safe on a ship in these times...social distancing is just not possible in any venue or activity on board.

 

On our last cruise in September there were a large number of passengers sick with a respiratory illness.  In spite of all the precautions I took I still became very sick.  That experience had me seriously questioning cruising and Covid 19 has sealed the deal for me.
 

A vaccine is critical for this industry to survive and that may never happen.

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On 5/8/2020 at 8:09 PM, Coral said:

Through all this - I have realized I am no longer a die-hard cruiser. My thought was if I get on another ship or my next ship, it maybe a river cruise (I loved my last river cruise). 100 people is fine for size for me. I have no desire right now to get on a ship with 4000 other people.


a River cruise is on my to-do list as well.   Hopefully next year. 
 

While the news focused on CoVid in ocean cruise ships, some of the earliest confirmed  CoVid cases in the Houston area were from a group who took a Nile River cruise.   A different River cruise boat on the Nile had to quarantine with passengers and crew.   

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/03/09/coronavirus-cases-texas-egypt-cruise-ship/

 

 

 

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BSocial;  I had a river cruise and two ocean cruises cancel this year.  I will try to book another river and ocean cruise next year;  will wait until end of this year to see how things are shaping up.   loge23;  Amen to your comment.

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8 hours ago, Doubt It said:

I have been losing interest in cruising for quite a while. The product has been consistently downgraded while prices were rising. Less staff, lesser quality food, reductions in space and service for non suite guests, Celebrities elimination of forward viewing lounge on their Edge class and reduction in size on some of their S class, seemingly increasing reporting of more missed ports, inward focused design by lessening viewing of the ocean, on and on.

 

The virus is simply the icing on the cake for my household and group of friends. We are moving towards high end escorted tours and train/air travel between ports. 

 

It is not about the money, it is about the experience - and getting a real experience, with real local food, seeing the real local geography etc.

 

Cruising is increasingly fake to me.

 

Since travel is funded by after tax income, I would not be purchasing a cruise if it comprises multiple checking on ship, every port, wearing masks etc. Not interested.

 

 

 

Sadly, we agree with you.  When I asked She Who Must Be Obeyed about the five cruises we had booked between the time Princess cancelled our April 4 cruisr - essentially stranding us in Australia - and the end of 2021, she said cancel them all and let's do a road trip in the US.  We are still waiting on over $9,000 back for that cancelled cruise.

 

Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.

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I too have my concerns about returning to cruising and I have the same concerns about any travel and land based vacations.  I just cancelled a land based trip in September that I have had booked since 2018.  It was designed to be a break from so many sea days and spending more time seeing the landscape and sights.  The problem is that the 20 day trip entailed 4 different flights, an overnight train trip and a seven day trip on a tour bus.  Not much chance of social distancing there.

 

If the future holds no more cruising for us, what other forms of vacationing/travel will be in the cards for us?  Hotels, public transportation, tourist locations will all be as unsafe as a cruise ship will be.  I think the only really safe trips will be what Thrak suggested - primitive camping trips.

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This is a real problem.  Not even a primitive camping trip will be 100% safe, you still need to stop for gasoline.  Still this is probably the lowest risk option along a continuum along which cruising is the highest risk option.

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