Grandeur Sold

[FlowBroTy]

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

Not sure why azipods makes the ship better for longer cruises

She Can Go  In To Ports Some Prop Ships Cant Go In To B/C Of Manverbily. 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, FlowBroTy said:

She Can Go  In To Ports Some Prop Ships Cant Go In To B/C Of Manverbily. 

This is a fallacy propagated by the azipod manufacturers.  A twin screw ship with variable pitch propellers, bow and stern thrusters, and "high lift" "Becker" rudders, which nearly every single cruise ship with shafted propellers have, with a well trained Captain, is just as maneuverable as a ship with azipods.  The real advantage of azipods is about a 10% increase in propeller efficiency due to the leading propeller, and the main advantage is capital cost.  Two azipods costs less than two propulsion motors, two shafts, two props, two controllable pitch hydraulic systems, two rudders, four steering motors, and 2-3 stern thrusters.

[goldfish65]

Just my $.02, companies must look to the future market, the older demographic who likes "classic cruising" will die off and the younger customers want lots to do and surroundings in the most up-to-date style, generally.

[Merion_Mom]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Actually, I think that Carnival's "rebuilding" plan is not that cost effective.  The real cost of older ships is not on the front of house, it is the technical side.  Ships over 15 years old no longer get the waiver to drydock every 5 years (with an underwater survey at the mid-period), but must actually drydock twice in 5 years.  Also, after the 15 year point, the technical inspections of the hull and machinery become much more intensive (read costly), and typically result in much more costly drydockings (steel renewal in tanks, hull plating, etc).  So, regardless of whether the Carnival ship remains under her old name and gets a hotel facelift, or they pack a big pile of cosmetic upgrades, and change the name, the hull is still old, and still requires the attention of an old ship.  The maintenance costs for ships over time is an exponential relationship, and it really turns the corner, going upwards in cost over a shorter and shorter period at the 15 year mark.

 

Why is Grandeur being sold to Pullmantur?  Cost.  Pullmantur has a different business model, and operates on a different profit margin, and with a different demographic, and can cover the added cost of older ships.

 

 

And when they don't sail in the US, they don't have to meet US standards.

 

Exhibit A:  The Empress of the Seas and her recovery and multiple drydock fiasco.

[mugtech]

4 hours ago, FLACRUISER99 said:

Cruises from San Juan are exempt.

Good to know, thank you

[ONECRUISER]

22 minutes ago, goldfish65 said:

Just my $.02, companies must look to the future market, the older demographic who likes "classic cruising" will die off and the younger customers want lots to do and surroundings in the most up-to-date style, generally.

That's been going on for 30yrs. When I first on Royal back then those that Cruised were called Newlywed, and Nearly Dead. We were 22, and only maybe half dozen younger then us. This on the Brand New Sovereign of the Seas, largest Cruise ship in the World. Was no kids or Teens, not a one. 95% were 40+ But then who could afford it back then, $3600 total for 2 of us in tiny Port Hole Deck 2 cabin. Had to Finance it for 12 months. Now it's cheaper take my Family on a Cruise then week in Orlando

[Tony O]

3 hours ago, Merion_Mom said:

 

It does not work like that.  RC bought a share of Pullmantur, which is a Spain-based company.  I don't know the percentage of control.

Royal owns 49%

[UPNYGuy]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Actually, I think that Carnival's "rebuilding" plan is not that cost effective.  The real cost of older ships is not on the front of house, it is the technical side.  Ships over 15 years old no longer get the waiver to drydock every 5 years (with an underwater survey at the mid-period), but must actually drydock twice in 5 years.  Also, after the 15 year point, the technical inspections of the hull and machinery become much more intensive (read costly), and typically result in much more costly drydockings (steel renewal in tanks, hull plating, etc).  So, regardless of whether the Carnival ship remains under her old name and gets a hotel facelift, or they pack a big pile of cosmetic upgrades, and change the name, the hull is still old, and still requires the attention of an old ship.  The maintenance costs for ships over time is an exponential relationship, and it really turns the corner, going upwards in cost over a shorter and shorter period at the 15 year mark.

 

Why is Grandeur being sold to Pullmantur?  Cost.  Pullmantur has a different business model, and operates on a different profit margin, and with a different demographic, and can cover the added cost of older ships.

this is valid, but adding 500 guests to these ships will likely offset the additional dry dock costs. That was where I was going.  Destiny into Sunshine was likely deemed a success or why do the other 2. Triumph was dry docked into Sunrise and Victory is getting the treatment as well.  If CCL was losing money and this was a loss making exercise I wouldn’t think they would be foolhardy enough to undertake this. 

granted, this is all hypothetical...

Edited October 17, 2019 by UPNYGuy

[Sunshine3601]

Grandeur was our first cruise with rccl for a 11 or 12 night cruise to eastern caribbean.  I think it was 2013.  That cruise definitely got me hooked.  

We are booked for  8 night cruise this coming march and we just did cruise to bermuda in september on her.   Will be sad to see her leave but I will like to try a different ship out of baltimore.

[AlohaLivin]

Well I am bummed. I realize it had to happen, but it is my favorite ship of many ship’s sailed despite it’s age and size. Thankfully we will sail her once more next summer. Some easier to interact with other passengers and to get to really know them (when desired). I would love it if they would be a few smaller ships as we aren’t fans of the Oasis size ships - I realize that is very unlikely, but I can dream!

[Hoopster95]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Radiance class ships have the gas turbines... more expensive to operate.

 

Hmmm... so the above plus less suites, less cabins, too much non-revenue producing public space... sounds like an easy decision for the Miami bean counters to me. 😢

 

Thanks again Cheng for all of contributions on this forum

[toad455]

So I'll guess and say the Enchantment sails from there for a few years and is then sold to Pullmantur as well. Baltimore then gets a Radiance-class ship.

[John&LaLa]

19 minutes ago, toad455 said:

So I'll guess and say the Enchantment sails from there for a few years and is then sold to Pullmantur as well. Baltimore then gets a Radiance-class ship.

 

No guarantee of that. Depends on profitability.  Radiance ships seem to do seasonal deployments 

[dakacz]

Sorry to see the Grandeur leaving Baltimore.  We have been on the Enchantment when it was in Baltimore and prefer the Grandeur.  The theater on the Enchantment  is too small for the passenger load and if we wanted to see a show we needed to get a seat at least 30-40 min before the show.  The cabins seem smaller. The pool area is nice on the Enchantment  but everyplace else gets overcrowded.

[John Reid]

7 hours ago, Merion_Mom said:

Just a little bit of odd wording, IMO.

 

Will Grandeur of the Seas be replaced in Baltimore?
Grandeurs’ sister ship, Enchantment of the Seas will sail from Baltimore, Maryland for the 2021 season, in late April. With her she’ll bring great amenities like, additional whirlpools and extra pools, a Diamond Club, and for adventure junkies, a bungee trampoline! Plus, some of our fan favorite dining options, like Park Café, Windjammer Café, Chops Grille, and Chef’s Table.

 

There's an implication that Grandeur doesn't have a Diamond Lounge?!?!?!?

I think the wording is a smokescreen to obfuscate that it is going to be a major downgrade from the current South Pacific lounge arrangement on Grandeur.

[Merion_Mom]

1 hour ago, John Reid said:

I think the wording is a smokescreen to obfuscate that it is going to be a major downgrade from the current South Pacific lounge arrangement on Grandeur.

 

All of the other Vision class ships put up cheap walls around a corner of the Deck 6 lounge.  Enchantment can still do the same thing, and stop using the VCL Diamond Lounge.

 

[Merion_Mom]

1 hour ago, dakacz said:

Sorry to see the Grandeur leaving Baltimore.  We have been on the Enchantment when it was in Baltimore and prefer the Grandeur.  The theater on the Enchantment  is too small for the passenger load and if we wanted to see a show we needed to get a seat at least 30-40 min before the show.  The cabins seem smaller. The pool area is nice on the Enchantment  but everyplace else gets overcrowded.

 

I almost always found that the theater on Grandeur was NOT crowded.  I anticipate no crowding on the Enchantment.  (and yes,  I have sailed on the Enchantment several times)

[reallyhooked]

Cruised on her 19 years ago. Never had the opportunity to go again.

[PhoenixCruiser]

Grandeur was our first Royal Caribbean cruise in 1997.

I'm wondering if there is a difference between Concierge Lounge and Concierge Club?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[perfect match]

Sad to see Grandeur leaving the fleet. 😞 

[chengkp75]

7 hours ago, UPNYGuy said:

this is valid, but adding 500 guests to these ships will likely offset the additional dry dock costs. That was where I was going.  Destiny into Sunshine was likely deemed a success or why do the other 2. Triumph was dry docked into Sunrise and Victory is getting the treatment as well.  If CCL was losing money and this was a loss making exercise I wouldn’t think they would be foolhardy enough to undertake this. 

granted, this is all hypothetical...

I'm not sure that the net revenue from 500 additional guests will repay the retrofit cost and the future hull and structure maintenance costs.  Destiny/Sunshine is 24 years old, so while her costs will have increased since turning 15 or so, they will continue to increase exponentially, and I don't know if Carnival has planned all of this cost into the ships.  Besides, the additional guests are a fixed revenue, while costs will continue to increase.  Time will tell whether they made a wise choice or not.

[Saab4444]

41 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I'm not sure that the net revenue from 500 additional guests will repay the retrofit cost and the future hull and structure maintenance costs.  Destiny/Sunshine is 24 years old, so while her costs will have increased since turning 15 or so, they will continue to increase exponentially, and I don't know if Carnival has planned all of this cost into the ships.  Besides, the additional guests are a fixed revenue, while costs will continue to increase.  Time will tell whether they made a wise choice or not.

Older ships might be much more expensive to operate but they are more amortized so the total costs might still be ok. Look at MS Europa (30 years old) or MS Artania (over 40 years old), both look excellent from the inside and outside, they go into long dry docks at least every two years and their companies are very profitable.       

[John Reid]

14 minutes ago, Merion_Mom said:

 

All of the other Vision class ships put up cheap walls around a corner of the Deck 6 lounge.  Enchantment can still do the same thing, and stop using the VCL Diamond Lounge.

 

 We know they can; what we don't know is if they will. 

[zepp914]

I am kind of bummed about this.  I love that ship.  We always had a blast on her.  

 

The Baltimore market puts Royal in a rather interesting conundrum.  The port is worth it as both Pride and Grandeur usually have no trouble sailing full.  They are eventually going to run out of smaller ships that can make it here though.   I am not sure if Majesty, Empress, or the Radiance ships meet the requirements to be in the Chesapeake Bay.   So after Enchantment, then what?  

 

 

18 hours ago, mugtech said:

So we should see a repositioning cruise by Enchantment from San Jose to Baltimore, perhaps on April 17, 2021, available in early November.

 

If there is one, that may be tempting.  

 

Would there be one for Grandeur as she switches companies?  Obviously Pullmantur doesn't sail out of Baltimore.  I suppose they could sail her empty from Baltimore to wherever for repainting.   

[SRF]

18 hours ago, Merion_Mom said:

 

Right after she came out of the shipyard for the stretch, she was homeported in Philadelphia.  I did the 7 night Canada/New England on her, too, but out of Philadelphia.

 

I sat down and did the math.  For what it cost me to fly the three of us to Miami, hotel, and all of the associated costs, I booked us a Grand Suite on the Enchantment.  Ah, suite suite experience.  Pulling out of our driveway to walking onto the ship = about an hour and a half.  BLISS.

 

If they get rid off all their smaller ships, and remove Baltimore as a port, it will GREATLY affect my cruising in RCI.